This week on Weapons and Warfare, the team goes hypersonic. Host Ryan Robertson talked with one of the decision-makers behind Lockheed Martin’s entry into the race: the Mako Multi-Mission Hypersonic Missile, a stand-off hypersonic weapon designed to fit the F-35A/C and F-22A.
Point phone camera here
Also featured in this episode:
- The secretary of defense heads to Germany for a meeting with allies and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
- DOD withholds $5,000,000 on each new F-35.
- Take a ride in a U-2 chase car.
- Weapon of the Week: Operation Hard Kill and the focus on anti-drone defensive systems.
You can subscribe to the Weapons and Warfare podcast on the platform of your choosing here.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
HELLO AND WELCOME TO WEAPONS AND WARFARE. FOR STRAIGHT ARROW NEWS, I’M YOUR HOST RYAN ROBERTSON. AND THIS WEEK, WE ARE COMING TO YOU FROM NATIONAL HARBOR, MARYLAND. SITE OF THIS YEAR’S AIR, SPACE, AND CYBER CONFERENCE PUT ON BY THE AIR AND SPACE FORCES ASSOCIATION.
THE THEME OF THIS YEAR’S EVENT ‘ACHIEVING DECISIVE ADVANTAGE IN AN AGE OF GROWING THREATS.’
OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS, WE’RE GOING TO HEAR FROM AIR FORCE LEADERSHIP ABOUT THE CHALLENGE OF STAYING READY FOR CONFLICT TODAY WHILE PREPARING FOR IT IN THE FUTURE. BUT THAT’S FOR NEXT WEEK’S EPISODE.
THIS WEEK, HYPERSONIC MISSILES. SPECIFICALLY THE MAKO FROM LOCKHEED MARTIN.
I HAD A CHANCE TO VISIT WITH THEIR DIRECTOR OF AIR DOMINANCE AND STRIKE WEAPONS ADVANCED PROGRAMS ABOUT THIS WEAPON THAT WAS DESIGNED ENTIRELY IN A DIGITAL ENGINEERING ECOSYSTEM.
AND WE’RE HEADED TO THE SHOOTING RANGE FOR OUR WEAPON OF THE WEEK TO FIND OUT WHY THIS ROBOTIC DOG IS PACKING SOME SERIOUS HEAT.
BUT FIRST, SOME HEADLINES YOU MAY HAVE MISSED.
U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN SAID A RECENT MEETING BETWEEN UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY AND TOP MILITARY LEADERS FROM MORE THAN 50 PARTNER NATIONS IN GERMANY WAS TAKING PLACE DURING A “DYNAMIC MOMENT” IN KYIV’S FIGHT AGAINST RUSSIA.
IT WAS ZELENSKYY’S FIRST TIME VISITING RAMSTEIN AIR BASE TO ADDRESS THE GROUP.
HE USED THE APPEARANCE TO STRESS THAT, IN HIS VIEW, WHAT’S NEEDED MOST NOW IS FOR THE U.S. AND THE WEST TO ALLOW HIM TO USE THE WEAPONS THEY PROVIDED TO STRIKE DEEPER INSIDE RUSSIA — SOMETHING THE U.S. HAS NOT SUPPORTED OUT OF CONCERN IT WOULD FURTHER ESCALATE THE WAR.
[PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY]
“We think it is wrong that there are such steps. We need to have this long-range capability, not only on the occupied territory of Ukraine, but also on the Russian territory, yes, so that Russia is motivated to seek peace.”
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
WHILE ZELENSKYY DIDN’T IMMEDIATELY GET THE GREEN LIGHT TO TAKE THE RESTRAINTS OFF, AUSTIN DIDN’T SHOW UP EMPTY-HANDED. DELIVERING A $250 MILLION AID PACKAGE THAT WILL PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT TO MEET ITS MOST URGENT NEEDS, INCLUDING AIR DEFENSE MISSILES, MUNITIONS FOR ROCKET SYSTEMS AND ARTILLERY, ARMORED VEHICLES, AND ANTI-TANK WEAPONS.
A NEW DEVELOPMENT IN THE “TECHNOLOGY REFRESH 3”, OR T-R-3 SAGA FOR THE F-35, UPGRADE. WHILE DELIVERIES OF THE LIGHTNING TWO HAVE RESUMED, THE PENTAGON IS WITHHOLDING A COOL $5 MILLION PER AIRCRAFT UNTIL LOCKHEED MARTIN CAN FULLY INSTALL THE LONG-DELAYED UPGRADE.
AS WE’VE REPORTED PREVIOUSLY, THE SOFTWARE AND HARDWARE IMPROVEMENTS INCLUDE BETTER DISPLAYS, COMPUTER MEMORY AND PROCESSING POWER.
IN AUGUST, THE COMPANY SAID IT WOULD TAKE BETWEEN 12 AND 18 MONTHS TO DELIVER THE DOZENS OF NEW F-35s THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY PARKED DUE TO THE DELIVERY PAUSE.
EVERY DELIVERY TRIGGERS A PAYMENT TO LOCKHEED MARTIN, BUT WITHHOLDING $5 MILLION PER JET WILL NO DOUBT IMPACT LOCKHEED’S PROFIT MARGIN, WHICH THE PENTAGON HOPES WILL PUSH THE COMPANY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE WHICH IT HAS SAID WILL STILL TAKE MONTHS.
AND FINALLY, HERE’S SOMETHING YOU DON’T SEE VERY OFTEN: THE VIEW FROM INSIDE THE CHASE CAR AS IT HELPS THE CREW OF THIS T-U-2-S LAND AT NIGHT AT BEALE AIR FORCE BASE, CALIFORNIA.
“Five, four, three, two, one!”
THE T-U-2-S, IS THE TRAINER AIRCRAFT FOR PILOTS WHO WILL EVENTUALLY FLY THE U-2 HIGH ALTITUDE RECONNAISSANCE JET.
SO WHAT’S WITH THE CHASE CAR? WELL THE DESIGN OF THE U-2 IS SO RADICAL, AND THE WINGS GENERATE SO MUCH LIFT, THAT PILOTS ACTUALLY HAVE TO STALL THE AIRCRAFT A FEW FEET OFF THE GROUND TO GET IT TO TOUCH DOWN. THAT KEEPS THEIR EYES OFF THE RUNWAY. ENTER THE CHASE CAR, WHICH PULLS-IN BEHIND THE DRAGON LADY AND, AS YOU HEARD, TALKS THE PILOT DOWN.
[TRANSITION]
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
ONE OF THE LIKELY BIG TOPICS OF DISCUSSION HERE THIS WEEK IS THE PROLIFERATION OF HYPERSONIC WEAPONS AND WHERE THE U-S STANDS CONCERNING ITS NEAR-PEER ADVERSARIES. I RECENTLY HAD TO CHANCE TO VISIT WITH LOCKHEED MARTIN’S DIRECTOR OF AIR DOMINANCE AND STRIKE WEAPONS ADVANCED PROGRAMS ABOUT THEIR ENTRY INTO THE CONVERSATION… THE MAKO.
[SCOTT “FISH” FISHER]
The Mako is the fastest shark in the ocean. So we started this seven years ago. Came up with a clever name for it, but the more clever part was coming from, where I had just come in operational tests for the United States Navy Marine Corps, where we went out and evaluated the latest weapon systems for the Navy. Coming from that I knew that there were some capability gaps, and that’s a fancy way of saying requirements. Capability gap is red. Can do a certain mission. Blue, the US can do a certain mission, if there’s a gap there, then we want to close that gap. That becomes a big R requirement, and by Red and Blue, red is OP force blue is friendly. Force Red’s our adversary, yes, and blue is us and our allies knew that there was a capability gap out there, across various mission areas, and wanted to close that gap with a single weapon. So about seven years ago, 2017 since then, we’ve spent, you know, 100 and $50 million investment, seven years of work with the government and internally with Lockheed Martin and it Mako, is a weapon that happens to be hypersonic. Hypersonic isn’t a weapon, right? That’s that hypersonic is a speed, but it’s a weapon that was developed to be multi mission, multi platform, multi domain. What the heck does that mean? Multi mission means, you know, taking out ships, taking out tanks, taking out air defenses, really, any mission that you can think of multi platform is this weapon literally can hang on anything that has 30 inch lugs. So we fit on all the teenagers, F 18, F 16, F 15, all the bombers out there, your mobility platform, like C 17 and and c1 30 so being able to be delivered via palletized and yes, and then internally and externally, on, internally, on our fifth generation platforms, F 22 and F 35 we’ve we’ve done those physical fit checks, and then and hanging externally on those platforms, and then multi domain. What does that mean? Well, we’ve been talking about air launched here. But what about surface launch, which is maritime, which is from the ocean? What about ground launched from the land? What about subsurface launch from a submarine. So it’s really it’s the One Ring to rule them all. It packs quite a punch in the end game. The missile itself is the missile of 13 it’s 1300 pounds. It’s 13 and a half inches in diameter. It’s got 130 pound warhead, and it’s 13 feet long.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
THE HYPERSONIC COMPONENT. I MEAN, SO THERE’S SO MUCH TALK ABOUT CHINA’S HYPERSONIC WEAPONS, THEIR MISSILES, LIKE THE DZ 17, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL IT. NOW, WHEN, WHEN YOU SET OUT TO DO THIS SEVEN YEARS AGO, THAT NECESSARILY ALL THE HYPERSONIC TALK WASN’T TAKING UP ALL THE AIRWAVES AS IT IS NOW. SO WAS THE DIFFERENCES, I GUESS. I MEAN, FOR THE LAYMAN, WHEN THEY SEE HYPERSONIC OR HEAR HYPERSONIC, IT’S JUST SUPER FAST, RIGHT? SO HOW DOES, HOW DOES THE MAKO DIFFER THAN THE CHINESE VERSION OF A HYPERSONIC WEAPON.
[SCOTT “FISH” FISHER]
Mach Five, for all intents and purposes, is about 50 miles a minute. So the rough rule of thumb, it’s not exact at 25,000 feet, it tends to almost correlate, but it’s about Mach one is about 10 miles a minute. So keep that as a reference frame. So think about that, 50 miles a minute, you’re almost going a mile a second.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
SO AT THIS POINT NOW, LIKE YOU’RE YOU’RE THERE, WAITING FOR THE CUSTOMER, THE GOVERNMENT WITH, WITH THE PRODUCT READY TO GO, IS THAT LIKE AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF IF, IF THEY WANT TO START PUTTING DOLLARS TOWARDS THIS THING, THEN ADDITIVE MANUFACTURING, ALL OF THE COMPONENTS ARE THERE. IT’S ALL IT’S ALL THE RIGHT, THE SUPPLY LINES ARE ALL ESTABLISHED. THIS THING CAN GO INTO PRODUCTION FAIRLY QUICKLY.
[SCOTT “FISH” FISHER]
So in general, yes, so we’ve been ready past 18 months. We haven’t been on contract for 18 months since we know that we are still ready to move out rapidly, whether that is the traditional route, going through the a what, as I stated, that full EMD phase, engineering, manufacturing, decision phase, and all of the milestones that that occur there. It’s, it’s, well, it’s very. Prescriptive, or we could go into something traditionally called a rapid prototyping so if a customer wanted to, hey, let’s, let’s, let’s build one of these things. Let’s, let’s. Elon Musk this, you know, space, SpaceX, let’s, let’s fail fast, fail early, if need be, and learn from it. And let’s get this out there as soon as possible the warfighter, we could take that route also, yes, we were at the point where we had the global supply chains identified. We had all of that lined up, but we didn’t go to the next piece which, which was to get onto that EMD contract. So we could, we could pivot fairly fast now. We haven’t been just sitting around the past 18 months. We have continued to look internationally. We’ve continued to keep our our domestic partners here, up to speed on what’s going on the US, government and various services have have asked for various briefs over the past 18 months, keeping an awareness of where we are. We’ve looked at alternative warheads in that timeline. And I think the biggest, the biggest thing that has occurred is the, as you brought up, Brian, the additive manufacturing piece since the inception seven years ago of Mako, the world has changed. From from a from a, you know, manufacturing standpoint, we are able to, I’m not going to throw out dollars here, I’ll just give you percentages and orders of magnitude, but we are able to take something that used, for instance, the guidance housing up front used to be made out. We call it subtractive manufacturing, not added subtractive, meaning you take this very expensive piece of metal, you hog it out, you weld stuff together. It takes a lot of time and and it’s very wasteful with additive manufacturing now we’re actually building up that component from the constituent parts, and we are able to do that, and I’m not kidding here, in 1/10 of the time, and 1/10 the cost, that’s that’s revolutionary, that’s not evolutionary, that’s significant, and that’s because the advances in in production capability for the better balance of a decade have changed tremendously. It’s all about, you know, how fast can you it’s not just about the quality that has to remain, but it’s the quantity. How many of these units can you put out per month? And as we’ve seen in Ukraine and other places, it’s about production capability, and it’s about getting weapons out there quickly. You can just make one or two a year. What’s the point? If? But if you can ramp up and produce that rate, and do it from from a, from a cost perspective, that’s, that’s a track.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
LAST QUESTION I HAD FOR YOU, FISH AS A FORMER FIGHTER PILOT. HOW HOW MUCH WOULD YOU HAVE WANTED THE MAKO IN IN YOUR BAYS, IF YOU COULD HAVE HAD IT?
[SCOTT “FISH” FISHER]
So, so thank you for asking that this was the weapon that I always wanted. That’s why I’m so passionate about this. I still have many of my junior officers from 10 years ago are now out there, the commanding officers of fighter squadrons, some of my training officers my squadron now drive around the nation’s capital ships are aircraft carriers, the most capable ships in the world. I made a promise to them, and I want to keep that promise. I need to get the best equipment to them, because there’s storm clouds on the horizon, and we want to make sure, through strength, that that we have peace. And it’s it’s important, this is what I wanted on my aircraft, and I know this is what they want also.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
THAT WAS PERFECT FISH. REALLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU SO MUCH.
[TRANSITION]
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
OF THE MANY LESSONS LEARNED FROM UKRAINE’S WAR AGAINST RUSSIA’S ILLEGAL INVASION IS JUST HOW EFFECTIVE DRONE WARFARE CAN BE. WHILE THE OFFENSIVE ADVANTAGES ARE EASY TO SEE, THE ABILITY TO DEFEND TROOPS AGAINST DRONES IN THE HANDS OF BAD ACTORS IS EQUALLY APPARENT. THAT WAS THE MOTIVATION FOR OPERATION HARD KILL, AND IT’S OUR WEAPON OF THE WEEK.
SOLDIERS, SENIOR ARMY LEADERS, AND INDUSTRY PARTNERS GATHERED AT FORT DRUM, NEW YORK, THIS SUMMER FOR A SHOWCASE OF VARIOUS COUNTER-UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS.
HOSTED BY THE 10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION, IT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SOLDIERS TO GET AN UP-CLOSE LOOK AT SOME DEVELOPING COUNTER-U-A-S EQUIPMENT THEY WILL LIKELY TAKE INTO AMERICA’S NEXT CONFLICT.
[Maj. Gen. Scott Naumann]
WE’VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT ONTO THE RANGE, MUCH LIKE WE TAKE A RIFLE OUT OF THE ARMS ROOM TODAY, WE GO TO THE RIFLE RANGE, WE OPEN UP THE RANGE, WE START SHOOTING. WE’VE GOTTA BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITH OUR DRONES, AND IT’S GOTTA BE SCRUTINIZED ACROSS THE FORCE, AND THESE TYPES OF EXERCISES HELP US SCRUTINIZE THAT FORCE AND IT GIVES US THE SETS AND THE REPETITIONS THAT WE NEED TO BE PROFICIENT BEFORE WE SEND OUR SOLDIERS INTO HARM’S WAY.
THE EVENT ILLUSTRATES PART OF THE DOD’S RESPONSE TO LAST JANUARY’S DEADLY ATTACK ON AN AMERICAN OUTPOST IN JORDAN BY A ONE-WAY UNCREWED AERIAL SYSTEM THAT KILLED THREE ARMY SOLDIERS AND WOUNDED 40 OTHERS. THE HOPE IS THAT ONE DAY, A COUNTER DRONE RANGE WILL BE AS ACCESSIBLE AS THE MODERN GUN RANGE.
[TRANSITION]
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
TIME NOW FOR COMMS CHECK, AND IN AUGUST WE TOLD YOU ABOUT MARINES IN JAPAN RECEIVING A FLEET OF NEW A-C-V-30s. WELL IT DIDN’T TAKE LONG FOR THE CORPS TO START PUTTING THOSE AMPHIBIOUS COMBAT VEHICLES TO WORK.
[ANIMATED TRANSITION]
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
THIS WAS THE SCENE AT THE CENTRAL TRAINING AREA AT CAMP SCHWAB IN OKINAWA, JAPAN. THE ACV’S SHOWN WERE THE FIRST TO ARRIVE TO THE THIRD MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE. THE TRAINING WAS PART OF WHAT THE MARINES CALL ROUTE RECONNAISSANCE.
[SPEAKER]
“We’re going to validate that we’re able to recover over this bridge. We’re not authorized to have more than one vehicle over this bridge at a time. So we’re going to be utilizing the R-7 to drag the ACV across.”
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
THESE MARINES ARE FORWARD DEPLOYED IN THE INDO-PACIFIC WITH THE 4TH MARINE REGIMENT, 3D MARINE DIVISION, AND ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SECURING OR SEIZING KEY MARITIME TERRAIN, AS WELL AS PROVIDING DETERRENCE FOR ENEMY AGGRESSIONS OR TO DEFEAT AN ENEMY ASSAULT.
THEY WILL NO DOUBT PLAY A CRITICAL ROLE IN ANY POSSIBLE FUTURE CONFLICT IN THE INDO-PACIFIC.
[TRANSITION]
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
ALRIGHT THAT JUST ABOUT DOES IT FOR THIS EDITION OF WEAPONS AND WARFARE–
WE HAVE PLENTY OF GREAT STORIES COMING YOUR WAY FROM THIS YEAR’S AIR SPACE CYBER CONFERENCE HOSTED BY THE AIR AND SPACE FORCES ASSOCIATION–
SO BE SURE TO LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AND ALL OUR OTHER SOCIAL FEEDS SO YOU STAY UP TO DATE.
BEFORE WE GO THOUGH–I WANT TO TAKE A FEW MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN IN THE MILITARY.
RECENTLY ON THE SHOW, WE REPORTED ON A FEW NOTABLE HAPPENINGS CONCERNING WOMEN IN THE SERVICE
LIKE THE ARMY FIRST LIEUTENANT WHO BECAME TRIPLE TABBED AFTER COMPLETING RANGER SCHOOL, SAPPER SCHOOL AND A JUNGLE SCHOOL COURSE IN HAWAII.
OR THE NATO AWACS FLIGHT THAT WAS CREWED ENTIRELY BY WOMEN RECENTLY–MARKING A HISTORIC OCCASION FOR SEVERAL NATIONS.
WE’VE OF COURSE DONE OTHER STORIES ABOUT WOMEN SERVING IN THE ARMED FORCES–AND INVARIABLY THERE ARE DETRACTORS, NAYSAYERS, AND KEYBOARD CURMUDGEONS WHO TRY AND SAY WOMEN DON’T BELONG IN THE MILITARY–OR THAT THESE WOMEN ONLY ACHIEVED THEIR RANK OR STATUS BECAUSE OF LOWERED STANDARDS OR BECAUSE THEY WERE A D-E-I HIRE.
WHILE I’D LIKE TO JUST TELL THOSE PEOPLE TO SHUT UP–I’LL TAKE THE HIGHER ROAD AND INSTEAD EDUCATE THEM A BIT.
WOMEN IN AMERICA WERE SERVING IN MILITARY ROLES BEFORE THE UNITED STATES WAS A NATION. WOMEN SERVED IN WASHINGTON’S CONTINENTAL ARMY…THEY DROVE HORSE-DRAWN WAGONS ONTO CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS TO SAVE DYING SOLDIERS. THEY WERE SPIES DURING WORLD WARS ONE AND TWO. THEY HELPED CRACK GERMAN CODES AND WERE VITAL TO NUMEROUS COMBAT OPERATIONS THROUGHOUT OUR NATION’S HISTORY.
TODAY, THERE ARE MORE THAN A QUARTER OF A MILLION WOMEN SERVING IN THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. SERVING IN ALL SORTS OF COMBAT ROLES LIKE PILOTS, INFANTRY OFFICERS, AND VEHICLE DRIVERS.
IT’S TRUE WOMEN MAKE UP LESS THAN 20% OF THE US’ TOTAL FORCE–BUT GIVEN THE HISTORIC MILESTONES SOME OF THOSE WOMEN RECENTLY PASSED–THERE’S NO REASON TO THINK THAT NUMBER WILL STAY LOW. THERE ARE WOMEN SERVING IN THE MILITARY EVERY DAY PROVING THEY DESERVE TO BE WHERE THEY ARE–AND THAT EXAMPLE WILL NO DOUBT HAVE AN IMPACT ON TOMORROW’S TOTAL FORCE.
FOR SENIOR PRODUCER BRETT BAKER, VIDEO EDITOR BRIAN SPENCER, AND GRAPHICS ARTIST DAKOTA PITEO,, I’M RYAN ROBERTSON WITH STRAIGHT ARROW NEWS, SIGNING OFF.
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